Bradley Jersak | Liminal Space & Discerning Vocation
Professor, principal, theologian and author, Bradley Jersak offers wise insight for those seeking to discern next steps in their vocational journey.
Bio:
Bradley Jersak is an author and teacher based in Abbotsford, BC. He currently serves as the Principal of St. Stephen’s University where he directs SSU’s School of Theology & Culture, teaches peace studies with the Jim Forest Institute for Religion, Peace and Justice, and is a regular speaker with the Open Table Conference crew. He writes regularly for the Clarion Journal and CWR magazine.
Through his books and seminars, Brad shares the good news that God is Love, perfectly revealed in Jesus Christ, and that God’s love heals wounded hearts and empowers us to heal this broken world.
Links & References
Check Out Bradley’s website: https://bradjersak.com/
Books Discussed:
Behold the Beauty of the Lord
https://a.co/d/2InFBG8
In the Name of Jesus
https://a.co/d/iN8C6h6
Available On
Transcript
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Wendy VanderWal Martin: Hello and welcome to the Love, Henri podcast, produced by the Henri Nouwen Society. Whether you're a longtime lover of Henri, or just being introduced to his work and his writing, we want you to know that you are a beloved child of God. And if you don't already get the daily meditations, we encourage you to check out our website, henrinouwen.org. Sign up for a daily reminder and inspiration to deepen and enlarge your spiritual life.
I'm thrilled to have a long time friend as our guest today, Bradley Jersak. Thanks for being with us, Brad.
Bradley Jersak: Thanks for having me, Wendy. It's good to see you and I am thrilled that you are involved with the Henri Nouwen Society. This is a wonderful opportunity and I'm so indebted to him. So to have a friend link into what's going on here, it's good news indeed.
Wendy VanderWal Martin: Well, I probably say this every podcast, but I read Henri as a hurting teenager, and it's immeasurable, the impact that he had on my life. So it really is a very full circle experience to now be able to share Henri, hopefully with new audiences and younger audiences, because I know what an impact he made on me when I was just a young person. So that's pretty cool.
But for those of you who don't know, Bradley, he's a superstar. He's an author and a teacher. He lives in beautiful Abbotsford, B.C. He's currently serving as the principal of St. Stephen’s University, and he directs SSU’s School of Theology and Culture. But not only that, he also teaches peace studies with the Jim Forest Institute for Religion, Peace and Justice. He's also a speaker with the Open Table Conference crew, and writes regularly for the Clarion Journal and CWR Magazine.
Now, I love this. I pulled this right off your website, Bradley, “Through his books and seminars, Bradley shares the good news that God is love perfectly revealed in Jesus Christ, and that God's love heals wounded hearts and empowers us to heal this broken world.” And I can imagine that if Henri was sitting beside me, he would just be so excited at that sort of sense of mission through your vocational calling and work. So it really is a thrill to have you. You know, I'm not a stranger to St. Stephens University – it has a special place in my heart. And so I wonder if you would just share with us for a few minutes about what you're most passionate about right now, and all the things that you're doing: the writing, the teaching, the sharing, the learning. What are you most passionate about?
Bradley Jersak: I think I am most passionate about the idea of bridging people. And so what we're discovering in different ways at the university is in, let's say the theology and culture program, there's a real market for those who want to cross bridges and enter conversations with those who are much different than them. So we, this would be a place where people from the ideological left and right, or conservative and progressive, and you name it, all those us/them ideologies, can sort of transcend the culture wars and get together, study together in a brave space where they share different opinions and may even get triggered and then go to dinner together, or the pub or karaoke or something like that, such that those that we thought were ‘them’ at the beginning of a cohort, for example, become dear friends and travel company when we do our travel modules.
So there's a bridging happening at a cultural level with that. And then in the Jim Forest Institute, that's our peace and justice department, the bridging is happening in terms of multi-faith conversations with people who again, very different than us, but are like-minded in our pursuit of peace. And we're learning how to honor and respect one another and hold difference with respect, without losing ourselves. And then in the reconciliation studies program, which is still trying to get traction here, we're looking at accompanying Indigenous people as we cross bridges together. And so we really appreciate learning how best to engage them in a way that's not just another layer of colonialism. So the bridging part has my heart right now, and I'm happy to sow into that. And I'm grateful to say we're seeing some of the reaping as the students go out into the world and become agents of agents of peace building and reconciliation.
Wendy VanderWal Martin: Full disclosure to you who are listening, my daughter happens to be in the Theology and Culture program that Bradley directs, and so she's in her twenties. And I think it's just so incredibly encouraging that young people are saying, “This is a worthwhile and worthy pursuit for my vocational work.” Now, Bradley, like many of us, you were a reader of Henri Nouwen early on. Tell us about your encounter with Henri and what impact did his writing have on your formation as you've moved into so many different facets of ministry and teaching?
Bradley Jersak: Well, it was surprising and enormous. So, I was working at Bethel Mennonite Church in Youth and Young Adults ministry. And then the pastor that I was working with there, Peter Bartel, who just passed away this Sunday, dear friend, we just dearly loved each other, and he was such a good mentor in the Jesus Way. So, he called me into his office and he had received a few copies of In the name of Jesus, and he gave me a copy and he said, “I think you might appreciate this book.” Not long after that Eden and I felt a call to go plant a church with another friend Brian, friends Brian and Sue West. And I brought In the name of Jesus with me. And whereas at the beginning we thought, well, we're both from a youth and young adult ministry background, we'll probably load the church up quickly with Gen X’ers, who were the 20 somethings of the time, early thirties. And that just didn't actually happen. What happened was care homes from around the city began to show up at our church where there was usually four, sometimes more people with disabilities in full-time care. And when they would come to our church, if they became what, let's say the status quo would think as disruptive…. Let's say they have a grand mal seizure, or they're autistic and they start shrieking or they bring their guitar along because they're a person with Down Syndrome who loves to be in worship or, and all of the ways that a church can get messy and loud and beautiful… that's who started showing up. In fact, one third of the congregation were residents in full-time care.
And that blindsided us. We were happy for it. We didn't see it coming. Right then I said, “Brian, we've got to read In the name of Jesus again. And there was especially a chapter on how we could experience mentoring from these folks instead of the condescension of, oh, they're our target group and we're going to help them and we're so important. And, what Nouwen did was he showed us that like, your credentials don't matter to these people. How big your office is utterly irrelevant. In fact, they may not even be able to remember your name, but what they will know and experience and want to teach you is that, “Will you love me and can I love you?” And that there's a mutuality in that. And as I'm reading about how Nouwen had to let go of his credentials and the people he was caring for really didn't care what his degree was, where it was from, who he had taught. Brian just melted and he actually just laid down on the floor and he cried through the whole chapter. Something was being released from him. I think he was being healed of the need for affirmations through standard worldly credentials. And a thousand pounds came off his shoulders as they did for me. Well, that book, and even that chapter ended up shaping the next 20 years of Freshwind Christian Fellowship was, was the church that existed for that time. And it had a profound effect on all of this, but like right into the foundations, there was Nouwen.
Wendy VanderWal Martin: Such a neat story. And again, I often imagine….. I never got to meet Henri in person, which is one of the deep disappointments. I was actually in Richmond Hill, I was doing my student pastoral internship, and I just thought, you know, surely there's going to be an opportunity soon. But it never really occurred to me to just drive up to Daybreak and meet him. And then of course, he died so unexpectedly in 1996, and I missed my chance. But I often imagine him sort of beside me in this work. And I think he just, again, would've loved to hear that story. I'm of Dutch descent, and so I know what it's like when Dutch people get really excited, it's this energy and charisma. And when I watch videos of Henri, I just know that that was part of his character and part of his passion.
Now we've called this podcast Love, Henri based a little bit on the title of this book, which is a collection of letters that Henri wrote. And he was incredibly disciplined in keeping up with his correspondence. Friendships, relationships were so dear and so important to him. And we thought it would be neat to pull some of these letters forward from the dusty past and use them as a bit of a catalyst for conversation. And today's letter is Henri's writing to a guy named Ed, who was editor of the Catholic Times and a friend. And Ed is at a Crossroads. So Henri writes with some really concrete suggestions about how to live in that time of decision making and discernment. It's written in July from 1988 so a few years ago. And this is what Henri writes.
Dear Ed, many thanks for your very good letter.
I very much understand you when you say that you find yourself at another crossroad in life. I would very much like to encourage you to take that very seriously and ask the Lord fervently to show you where he is calling you. When I was at Harvard, I also had that very deep feeling that God was calling me to something new, and I was even afraid to pray because God might give me too clear an answer. But as I prayed, I found that God did indeed have something new in mind for me, and I am deeply grateful that I listened to his voice, even though I was led to places I would rather not go. You certainly have the strength to overcome cynicism and become a model of hope. The simple fact that you raise that question makes me aware of your real search and the fact that God is calling you to something new.
Try to take little steps in the direction of your inner call, a regular hour of silent prayer talks with people who can truly listen to you, reading books that help you sharpen your own inner vocation, visits to places and people where some of your dream is lived out. Be sure to never let your life go flat. Always know that God is calling you to ever greater things. Maybe one day you will have an opportunity to come and visit us for a few days, and then we could talk more about your vocation. I'm certainly very open to that. Thanks again for writing. Be sure to stay in touch with warm greetings. Love Henri.
Now, as you're listening to that letter from 1988, what resonates, Bradley? What jumps out at you?
Bradley Jersak: Two things immediately. The first one is the importance of getting into the right posture when we're in a liminal space, where we sense we're at a crossroads. And what I mean by right posture, I'm in the early part of the letter, it felt like he was reminding me of Ignatius, of Loyola in his conversations around discernment. That when we're in a liminal space, we can end up doing a knee jerk reaction if we're sort of in a… if we're not in contemplation, but we're in desolation. That's sort of the language that's used in that world. So in desolation that's when we might prematurely quit something or prematurely jump on a bandwagon just to change our situation. It's because our heart's not at rest. And it's very difficult to be patient through that and say, in the moment when I most want to run away, I won't.
I'm going to, I'm going to sit, I'm going to wait. I know something's coming. But if I decide today while I'm in desolation, desolation or discouragement, or somehow that my passions are upset, I'm not going to be hearing very clearly. So it, it feels to me like he's calling us to a place of stillness and even the silent prayer, right? And centering ourselves so that when we're at peace enough even to stay, now, we'll be released to go and we'll see with much clearer eyes. So that's one aspect. But then he gets into vocation and he gives him a lot of really great suggestions about what to do, who to read, how to be, and let's say who to visit and so on. And what I hear in that is the echoes of our other mentor, Jim Forrest, who is with the Orthodox Peace Fellowship.
And, and we named the Peace and Justice Institute after him. And what was going on.. I talked to Jim about this, about vocation when we're in transition and crossroads and especially for young people. So he actually helped me compose a letter to my sons about how to prepare for your vocation and not to confuse it with your career or your job. And so he said, “You may have many jobs throughout your life and you'll come and go, and that'll have salaries and tasks and job descriptions, but vocation is something bigger than that. And to get in touch with your vocation, which literally means your calling and what you're on earth to do, that can take time. And it means reading the heroes, reading the scriptures, time and prayer, engaging with mentors.” And so Jim gave me a very similar list to what we hear in this letter.
And it was just a reminder to me that we may have vocational shifts in our lives, but this is something different than a job. So, for example, I think I have a vocation as a teacher, but that can look like a magazine article. It can look like a book. It can look like a lecture hall. It can look like a pulpit. But somehow that vocation is playing out in various ways, whether publicly or in individual mentoring and so on, even a podcast. So am I a podcast junkie? I don't think so. But maybe we're teaching something today as we're engaging on this letter.
Wendy VanderWal Martin: Well, I'm thinking a bit of what I know of your journey and it's taken you through some twists and turns. You're not in the same place you are today that you were as you began eagerly setting out to participate in ministry. Tell us about some of the crossroads you have faced and how you work that through to enlarge that sense of vocation for yourself.
Bradley Jersak: Okay. Well, just a full disclosure. I heard the word crossroads there with a capital C. And so sometimes I think that that involves… there is a kind of death and resurrection. And I know you've experienced this personally that moving from one season of life to the other can be quite traumatic, but also loaded with opportunities. So for me, what happened was I came out of seminary wanting to be a Bible teacher in a college. And I tried everywhere and all the doors were closed. They didn't need someone with an M.A unless it was a little Bible college that needed you to work 60 hours a week at three different jobs. And, and I just, no one was interested. And I said, “Well, Lord, as long as it's not… like I don't want to be a youth pastor, I'll do anything except that.”
Of course. Then, Eden's home church called me and said, “We need a youth pastor.” And I thought, “I just don't want to do that.” I even felt belligerent about it. I went and candidated out of, I don't know, desperation or obedience or something, but I thought, “I'm going to be my true self there and they won't like it.” And I'm going to lay out a fleece of, I need a 95% affirmation vote when they're seeing my worst self. It was really actually preposterous. And it was quite a horrid weekend and then they took the vote and it was 96%. Well, I end up going there for 10 years and absolutely falling in love with youth and young adults, with community outreach, with sort of the front lines equipping ministry and really wonderful things happened. And so that carried on for 10 years. And then the idea of church planting for people on the margins happened. And that was a shift that took a big leap of faith - but also just fell in love with people from the various care homes. And then the addicts started showing up because they're like, “Well, we feel safe here and this must be home.” And then the unhoused people started coming and suddenly it was its own thing. But 20 years into pastoring then I actually had a major crash in 2008, and I just, I came apart. I [had an] emotional breakdown and acting out in addictions, and it was awful. And I thought, “I don't think I trust God anymore.” And that I've never had that. I'd never had that. So this was a massive shift for me. And I spent the next five years recovering from that. And Eden, my wife, was amazing. The church asked her to step in and lead. So she had to do a healing work there. Because a big part of my meltdown was the amount of trauma that was happening. So many people died that year. And the nature of their deaths, given it was people, addicts, homeless people we dearly loved in the care homes, like just death after death after, and abduction and a murder. And I completely lost my mind. I probably spent half the next year in bed. And in the midst of that, I met Simone Weil, through her writings who…. and found a wonderful spiritual director, Steven Imbach, who had engagement with Nouwen.
And so it felt like I was getting a Nouwen disciple really my spiritual director for 10 years. And 12 step recovery was part of that. And then…. I was able to just hunker down and do my PhD work on Simone Weil and the problem of suffering, the problem of affliction. And then by the time I was just finishing up and I got an offer to teach in England at Westminster Theological Center, where then I met Peter Fitch and Walter Thiessen, who were guest lecturers there, or adjunct, who said, you should come to St. Stephen’s. And so I ended up there. And so we have this 20 year period of pastoring, five year period of recovery. And then since 2012 working at, finally I got to be a Bible teacher and theology teacher and so on.
And now the last season has sort of thrust me into this principal position at St. Stephen’s. And I will see where that goes.. but I'm also turning 60 in a few weeks. So you got those seasons going as well. So that's a bit about my journey. And there are chunks to it though, aren't there? And through that there's still a me, there's still a self where I can look back on a very different life and yet say, but I remember being that person, and I'm still that person in some ways, transformed in other ways, healed a little bit more. I hope. So.
Wendy VanderWal Martin: As I'm listening to you, Brad, I just think of the grace that there is for those of us who sort of resist the liminality, the threshold place of change.
And you hinted at the significant shift that I went through, and, you know, a ministry that I served 20 years ended and ended in a way that was quite traumatic for me personally. And I look back and say, “I was so invested. I had given so much of myself. I never would have left.” I would have done anything to try to, you know, contribute to the flourishing of that work. I believed in it so deeply. And there's a grace to know that it's not just those who enter liminality with great faith and great openness and sort of the serenity of deep contemplative discernment, but that, you know, those of us with our blind spots and our stubbornness and our resistance, that grace meets us in those places of transition too. And as Henri just, you know, emphasized again and again and again, that we are beloved ones who are kind of accompanied through that transition almost no matter how it is that we enter it, even if we seem to be, I mean, Henri even says, right, that he went to places he did not necessarily want to go and yet found healing and freedom in those places.
Now, in your work with students and also the interactions you have with those who've been reading your books, what kinds of questions and searching are you encountering when it comes to a sense of vocation or transition? Like as you listen to your students, what's the thing that they're struggling with to enter into that next place of vocation?
Bradley Jersak: Oh, what an important question. I think that there's two layers going on for them at once. One of them is that there, many of them are in some kind of, we'll use the D word deconstruction, you know, or we could say growth, we could say reframing. I think many of them are reframing their faith and it has an impact on vocation then, right? So if they're reframing, let's say, out of a toxic image of God, or a very narrow view of the kingdom of God, or formerly more, let's say, had views that were less welcoming and inclusive of the other. And suddenly they feel the liberation and the struggle of letting go of that former way of seeing God and of themselves and of the other. This can be quite a faith crisis for them, but the crisis is an opportunity.
And so that some of them need to go through a bit of a faith meltdown in order to rebuild. Others, just start soaring, but then run into opposition right away. You know, that. So some are coming to school thinking like, “I'm losing my faith here.” But then it gets reinvigorated. Others are coming to school and they're like, “This is what I've been looking for, but where else can I go now?” So then that takes you to the next layer. When there, if you have somebody who has, is in the midst of, or passing through a faith shift and they're not only thinking about, “Where will I find a job?” but like, “Where do I belong? To whom do I belong?” And so that may include a complete shift, like let's say a shift from one denomination to another. Let's say they go from evangelical to Quaker or something like that.
But it can also be in terms of like the kind of jobs that they do. So let's say I've been a pastor all my life. It's all I know. And now, let's say, I've become affirming and I'm no longer welcome. And I don't know, I don't know that rest of that world…. maybe I don't even want to pastor anymore, which is, was like my case. I didn't, I'm like, I think I'm done with pastoring now. What? So that's a huge struggle for people. And then even they put some responsibility on us, and they're like, okay, “If I get an M.A, where will I get a job?” It's like, I don't know. I guess we'll pray about that and watch for it. And you kind of have to apply and know what you want to do. So they're really struggling, and I think it's really nice then that, let's say a degree can take some time.
It gives you time, it buys you time where you can still feel like I am, “I'm working, I'm doing the inner work, I'm doing the vocational work, but I don't know tomorrow where I'll be.” But maybe in two years actually, they're ripe and then something opens up for them and they're welcomed into new doors. That when we talk of liminal space, of course that literally means like the lentil of a doorway. You know, we're crossing through a doorway. And I think some worry about getting stuck in the doorway. They feel like it's more like a long hallway. It's very disorienting. And I find it comforting to think of even Christ's words, “I am the door.” So what if liminal space isn't like the place between where Christ was with you and where he will be in the future? But it's like, when I look back now, it was those crossroads that actually were the most formative for me. And that's where I met God in new ways, fresh ways that transcended my theology for sure.
Wendy VanderWal Martin: I wonder if you would comment a bit on the role of community. Henri writes this letter to an individual, and students may come to SSU and your Theology and Culture program or the Peace and Justice program as an individual. But tell us a bit about how you are witnessing community being part of moving through these crossroads, moving through these times of discernment and clarifying vocation? Even the deep questions about, “Can I make a living and support my family after I do this work?” What role does community play?
Bradley Jersak: That's, it's just so crucial. I see it both in the academic world and in the 12 step world, in other kind of recovery circles, and in spiritual direction. So the community aspect, to me, the first thing that jumps out is it's an embodiment of the divine. It's an embodiment of nonjudgmental listening and attention, which is the rarest form of, you know of love probably. And we're, so first of all, to feel like you're being heard, but also then even at the outset, “Oh, there's a place to belong.” I find like the community, then what it helps us is where I'm most likely to get stuck, to have someone accompany me through it. They might not drag me or push me through it, but at least they…. and not have answers or fixes, but just to have others who are walking with me.
I can think of a friend who decided to come to our residency in the spring. He was 80 years old, and he had been a pastor most of his life. And then, and then just actually through discovering who he was as he's pushing 80. And I talked to one of his friends this week, and he said the before and after of that one week experience in community has changed him completely forever. I'm like 80 years old, that's a little bit late to be doing that. And it's like, he's gone from loneliness and depression and long-term guilt into just sharing his story in a few minutes in a classroom. And instead of being horrified or too awkward, the students just all gathered toward this guy and loved on him and said, “We love you for who you are. We hardly know you, but our first experience of you is authenticity.” And he hadn't experienced this before from family or friends or former colleagues and congregants. Suddenly this little community of, I don't know, maybe there was 12 or 15 people in the span of seven days, it shifted everything. And here's a great example of where vocation isn't about job. You know, his one job right now is he serves as a volunteer for a ministry like a relief ministry. And he did that before, and he did that after. But his place in the world, who I am and how I serve and who I want to be, it created such broader horizons that he could not see without that sense of connection that happened in community there.
So our tendency, even in liminal space times, for some it will be to reach out, but for some it's to isolate. And the stuck-ness that comes from that absolutely needs other people who embody the love of and acceptance of God.
Wendy VanderWal Martin: It seems to me that connected to that is asking for what we need. And for some of us, especially if our crossroads is coming after a season of great competence and great contribution, it's so challenging to say to a community of people and risk the trust that presenting your need will not diminish you in the relationships that you hold so dear. And Henri modeled that so amazingly. I think particularly of the book, the Inner Voice of Love, this very private journal, but that came out of a time where his community recognized a need in him to go away and have a place of rest. And so these practices really that we embody and that we risk, and that we have the courage, hopefully finding a brave space, as you referenced earlier, in these times of liminality.
Henri spoke about four specific ones in the letter, an hour in silent prayer, talking with people who can truly listen to you, reading books that help you sharpen your own inner vocation, and visits to places and people where some of your dream is lived out. Bradley, how have you experienced that? Like, tell us about some of the books that you began to read that just really sharpened your sense of vocation. I see you surrounded by icons and you spoke about being an evangelical. So you know, that's an interesting journey right there that an evangelical has icons around him. What are some of those spiritual practices that you have learned, adopted, embodied as you've made these sorts of shifts through your journey?
Bradley Jersak: Well, of course we could, we could just riff off the ones that you listed, but I really want to promote the idea of mentorship in the moment. And that can look like many things, but since I was 17 years old, and now I'm just about 60, I have always had at least one, but usually several mentors and I really care about what they invest into me. I've had mentors who were youth workers, basketball coaches senior pastors, spiritual directors, 12 step sponsors, a godfather who calls me every week and really attends to me. And what I think the active ingredient there is that they don't try to control me. They even resist the word director simultaneously. I have chosen to try to submit to them. And so I'm like, “I'm not calling you unless I intend to listen.”
And they're like, “Well, I'm not speaking to you if you think you have to obey me.” The two together work really well. And the problem is, can be an extreme in either side where if the mentor's not being listened to, he is like, “Well, then forget you. You didn't listen anyway.” Or where the mentee is saying, “Well, you can talk for an hour, but it's not like I'm going to do something about it.” That just doesn't work. And I meet a lot of people who even, you know, older people who say, “I've never had a mentor and I don't even know how to get one, and you seem to have such good ones.” And I'm like, “Go make one, like go to McDonald's on some midweek morning and see if there's a silver-haired person in the room and go ask them their story.
And what I found out is that the stories of seasoned people have been a big part of my mentoring. So that would be a practice.
The other, another practice that I, moving from an evangelical world through the Anabaptist world, and then, I still am very Anabaptist, but I participate in the Eastern Orthodox Church, we have these prayers. And so my friend Brian, he says it this way, “When you can't pray, at least say your prayers.” So there's times in liminal space where you kind of lose your words. You may even feel like you've lost touch with God. And yet we've got a Psalter with 150 Psalms in it that are very authentic. And there's a lot of liminal space kind of psalms in there. There's other, you know, sort of those standard prayers. Like most days I try to, I pray the Lord's Prayer and the Sermon on the Mount, the Beatitudes.
And I have a list of these prayers that I do that when I can't pray, I can say my prayers. And somehow those carry me through in a way that the community of God has composed these as maybe even stretcher bearers when I need it. You know? So maybe my mentors and my prayers are two of the ways that have helped me when I, especially when I'm at my lowest and I don't have the initiative or emotional soul strength to kind of pull myself up by my bootstraps. And we mentioned community as well, and being part of something where I can just go and say, “I'm not doing well today. Help.” And that there would be the kind of listeners who aren't rushing to with a fix or advice. Certainly not like Facebook comments, it would be the arm around me and tucking me under their wing.
Wendy VanderWal Martin: I'm struck by Henri's encouragement about books. And I think we are perhaps a little addicted to the Insta inspiration, a la social media, you know, the meme that is supposed to nourish us for the day.
Tell us about…. you spoke about how Simone Weil was sort of the entry point for you, but I know you teach now on the early fathers and mothers… who are some of those voices from the past as someone who grew up evangelical, so wasn't hearing about them all the time, who have been some of your accompaniers?
Bradley Jersak: Oh, very good. And, you know, I literally feel like that in the sense that I'm not reading dead people. I am communing with the living in the cloud of witnesses who are helping me along. So that's part of the Orthodox tradition is the sense of their presence to me, because we are at the same throne of grace when I come to meet with the Lord. So, for example St. Athanasius, he wrote a book called On the Incarnation, and that's precious to me, and it helped move my boundaries in turn, because one of his great emphasis there is how that in Christ, God has united God's self to every single man, woman, and child on the planet. There, it's an absolute union. It's that Christ has made himself indivisible from the human condition. And so it's not like he just suffered past tense, like sort of we suffer. It's that he's united with the one who is suffering in the suffering. Not just watching from a distance, but undergoing it in a way where Christ could say to Paul, “Why are you persecuting me?” Or Matthew 25? “What you do to them, you're doing to me.” Well, it's not like, “Poor Jesus.” It's more like, every one of us can count on that union when we're experiencing suffering, including liminal space. Which you see dramatically in the Garden of Gethsemane.
And then another one, I love the Cappadocian mothers and fathers. And what's going on there is you've got these great men, male theologians, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory of Nazianzus, Basil the Great, and so on, and they are writing theology as they're observing the female people in their life: the grandmas, mothers, sisters who are actually being transformed in front of their eyes. And, and they're like, “Something is happening in these women that we need a theology to describe it.” So they come up with this beautiful theology of theosis that we are being transformed from grace to grace being transfigured, in the words of Paul, into the image of Jesus Christ. And they're like, “How is this happening?” And they're watching it in real time and sitting at the feet of these women. And this actually is the pattern of the early church. We sometimes think, well, there's not a lot of women voices. It's like, oh, there's women voices. It's just men writers. And like St. Macrina, for example, didn't write for the same reason Jesus didn't, she was the teacher. The rest are just scribes. And so these theologians, scribes describe her life. They describe her going through the liminal space as she's on her deathbed with one foot in this realm and one already in the other. And her, her younger brother, Gregory's, just crying. She says, “You've got to stop crying now. I've got to tell you what's going on.” And he writes a book called On the Soul of the Resurrection, but it's all her voice. And so she's been a real companion of mine for sure as well, along with, you know, the guys that kind of sat at her feet. And so those are a few fun examples. I think.
Wendy VanderWal Martin: Now, typically, I, end a podcast conversation by asking about what spiritual practices help our guests to be sustainable and to flourish in their life. But I sort of feel like we've been talking quite a bit about spiritual practices. So I wonder instead if you would, perhaps for someone who's never encountered Henri Nouwen, you've just described a beautiful way that people who are no longer with us accompany us as a true spiritual friend through their writing and work. What would you say to that person who's never read Henri Nouwen, and is listening to this conversation, about inviting Henri to accompany them? What things stick out for you of what you have experienced from Henri?
Bradley Jersak: Okay, very good. You know, there's so many books we could talk about, but I kind of want to mention that In the Name of Jesus again as a great starting point. And, and to journal and even journal specifically with a pen or pencil or whatever. So your handwriting, your reflections with him as if he's sitting with you because in a way he is, and that you would read a bit and then… but don't, make it like, “Well, I'm going to do this as toilet reading or something”, or I need to get… you could get through the book in a day. Well, don't. Read a read a few paragraphs until your heart says, “Let's chat. What's the heart of the matter?” And I found that to be a very good question to ask Henri. Now, I'm going to read this chapter, and as I do, I want you to show me.. and ask the Lord. In a sense, it's the Lord answering in the name of Henri Nouwen. It's an interesting Orthodox perspective. When we invoke the, you know, the saints, we're really just invoking the Lord and in their name, but they're part of this cloud of witnesses. So what's the heart of the matter? And then just do a little journaling. And I, you know, I wouldn't read more than two pages probably before I would do that. And then let it just simmer. And this is something he's really taught us, I think, is how to simmer in the truth and meditate on it. Instead of racing through and making, reading a Henri Nouwen book, like racing through it to make it an accomplishment. That I finished the book is so the opposite of what he was about, you know?
But he also, Wendy, do you remember the name of the book that he did on the icons? It's a different space he's coming from, but he wrote a book about icons and maybe we can look it up later and add it to a link, but he takes us to the Trinity icon and to a few others, and it's his meditations as he's looking on these, really most of them are Eastern icons, I think, and especially the Trinity one has been precious to people who knew him. And he does some mentoring in how to engage icons. So you can see even in the background here I've just brought this icon back from Greece at Meteora, and there'd be a picture like this also in, in Henri's book about it. And what I particularly loved about this one was the eye contact between Mary and Jesus. They're some, often she's looking out at you, but here they're looking at each other and they're cheek to cheek, and his little hand is on her chin. And I look down further and what I see is like she's got three of her fingers under his, probably checking his diaper. That's how I see that, you know? And it becomes a very intimate place where the icon then sort of represents the living truth behind the icon. And it's conveyed well, the first person ever to mentor me, and that was Henri Nouwen through that little book. And so I do highly recommend it. It's a beautiful little work and it would bring into practice then another element of the Christian disciplines that mattered to him.
Wendy VanderWal Martin: I just finished recording with Carolyn Arends, our 2024 Meditation Series, and Carolyn's title is, A Beautiful Adventure: the Gift of the Arts in Spiritual Formation. And one of the things we talked about was that Henri's beloved book, The Return of the Prodigal Son, is like this amazing case study in Visio Divina. Where Rembrandt's painting of this parable from Luke 15 is this extended Visio Divina. And so I do think it's an incredibly beautiful gift that Henri brought transcending denominations and various parts of the body of Christ to invite us into very creatively oriented spiritual practice. So that's a wonderful, wonderful way to end.
Bradley Jersak: I would like to say about that too, that in the contemplative world, there can be a temptation that the divine becomes so ethereal, that it's abstract and Visio Divina is one of the ways, and even at the seventh Council, when they promoted icons again, they said, this is why, because the divine is incarnate in this world, and this is a way of seeing. And so I'm really appreciative of that approach after coming out of a more abstracted faith.
Wendy VanderWal Martin: A way of seeing. Thank you to those who've been listening to this conversation with Bradley Jersak. If you've been listening, but would like to see us, it's also going to be loaded up on our YouTube channel, which you can find on our website, henrinouwen.org.
Now, Bradley has some amazing books. We haven't even specifically talked about any of them in this conversation, but all of that information will be available also in the show notes.
So again, thank you for being with us, and never forget that you are God's beloved.
