DQ 5.1 Joy and suffering the same thing???
Many people in this online reading group have shared some of their suffering. Thank you for that! This leads to a great question. As Henri says, the novelist Julien Green suggests that in the end, joy and suffering are the same thing (p. 109). How can that be? Do you agree?
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August 5th, 2009 @ 2:49 pm
Just now reading your remark on Psalm 116:10.
The linkage between believing (faith) and affliction is among the more provocative, for me, and yet the Cross is so clearly an indication of this connection.
I have considered this:
Believing in Christ and coming into faith gives one the basis for owning up to the emptiness/corruption of oneself, that is, seeing affliction in a spiritual sense.
But the gift of Scripture is that Ps. 116:10 applies as well to physical affliction, which can provide a crucible for faith.
See Romans 5:3 — … We also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance, perseverance produces character and character produces hope. And hope does not disppoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
July 7th, 2006 @ 10:48 pm
‘I believed; therefore I said,”I am greatly afflicted.”‘ (Ps 116:10, NIV). How heartening to see in the Psalmist not a denial of suffering (I’m happy all the day!) on one hand, nor a denial of faith (How can God allow me to suffer this way?) on the other. Faith and suffering can go hand in hand. And it must.
It is hope that puts suffering in perspective, making it tolerable. And suffering builds my capacity to hope, and hence joy. This interplay goes on with every step we take - courage to take on new challenges however frightening or risky, and faith to embrace the pains that come with them, knowing that I am being transformed through them.
July 1st, 2006 @ 5:07 pm
I read this book, and I think, in my short lifetime (14 years), that suffering for something you love, or loved, leads to joy. Joy also can lead to suffering, if you rejoice in worldly things against the Bible. Yes, I definetly think this is a true, or at least reasonable statement. Jesus loves you all, remember to smile all the time!
May 17th, 2006 @ 8:11 am
Life of the Beloved - suffering and joy - all through my life suffering and joy were just part of life, UNTIL i read Life of the Beloved.
now i understand and believe that joy leads to suffering at times and then suffering leads to joy.
i have been joyful in life situations that were not of god, but have come through the suffering they caused to a new joy in christ.
i have given this book to so many since i first read it about 15 years ago. my friends have come to know and love henri as i do.
maggie marasco
May 15th, 2006 @ 2:05 pm
I firmly believe joy and suffering can and do coexist. Many in this group suffer from poverty, illness and pain, mental illness and/or loss of one form or another. And yet so many of us have a very positive attitude and willingness to learn from what we read and each other. Part of it is understanding that joy is not the same and the feeling of being happy all of the time. The other thing is that as Miriam said so well and Jill echoed, once we are willing to empty our cups so that they can then be filled with, as Henri put it, “love”.
For me to go out and stop wherever I see someone who looks tired or in pain or is in a chair or walker and say anything with love that lets them know I care is basically my emptying my cup and filling it with the love, joy or appreciation of those I meet. I don’t pay attention to my condition, but rather to others. At present we are without sidewalks as they are in the process of repairing them. We put boards across the ditch so we could get my chair to the car, my hubby loads it and off we go. He does his thing, I motor around the Mall doing mine, and then I motor home. I don’t need to spend a penny. It is simply a joy to see and say hello to people.
May 14th, 2006 @ 11:55 am
Emptying ourselves, creating a hospitable space, surrendering are different ways of yielding to the anointing presence of God in our lives. That seems to be the answer.
Joy and sorrow can sometimes bring a ‘disconnect’, and even that’s ok when we have a consistent and rewarding relationship with God. The line in the poem “Footprints” comes to mind:
“During your times of trial and suffering when you see only one set of footprints it was then I carried you.”
May 14th, 2006 @ 6:53 am
A colleague at work resigned decided to resign to look for a different lifestyle in a different city, and one of the things she told me was: I don’t want to be a busy person any more. She is relocating without a firm plan — just trust that she’ll be OK. In the meantime, she has learned to savor more than ever the time she spends with others, and she wants to be more present to them and make the time to do it. And she’ll strive not to be a “busy person” too overwhelmed by the hectic pace of life. This is truly an example of emptying oneself so that she can be available to others. Nice, huh?
May 14th, 2006 @ 6:02 am
Carole, I have been trying to find the words to respond to this question but was having a difficult time. Now I don’t have to. You said it for me. Thank you for thinking out loud!
May 13th, 2006 @ 9:45 pm
Henri’s Daily Meditation thought for today says it all.
“Emptiness and fullness at first seem complete opposites. But in the spiritual life they are not. In the spiritual life we find the fulfillment of our deepest desires by becoming empty for God.
We must empty the cups of our lives completely to be able to receive the fullness of life from God. ”
Our joy with God stems regardless of the joys and sorrows of life. Fullness of life from God isn’t dependent on joy or suffering in the end. In that regard they are similar…..I guess.
May 13th, 2006 @ 11:39 am
It seems to me that Nouwen is saying that both joy and sorrow have the ability to bring us closer to God, wherein is the source of all joy. If that is what he is saying I can indeed say with him, that joy and sorrow and more alike than not. In our darkest hour, at our darkest moment, if we descend fully into the depths of our experience, we will find God, experience God, and therein lies boundless joy. It is different from happiness and unhappiness as a feeling, an emotion. It is joy, it is uniting with Christ, it is complete and involves the all of our selves, rather than just a part of ourselves, which is a particular emotion of sadness or joy, or whatever…..
don’t know if I’ve made myself clear, I’m kind of thinking out loud, but on some level I do believe that Julian Green and Henri are making a valid statement.
I’ve really enjoyed this book and this exchange of ideas. Thank you all very much for it.
May 13th, 2006 @ 9:13 am
Sublime examples of suffering like martyrdom are different. The protagonist enjoys being a vessel of God.
How about mundane events of suffering e.g. the death of a child / partner / friend, the loss of a job, poverty, illtreatment, treachery etc. Aren’t all these very real when it comes to suffering ? How can they be similar to joy ?
May 12th, 2006 @ 9:17 pm
The martyrdom of Stephen by Saul and his cohorts is very important. At the stoning there is immense joy on the part of the executioners. As they lay their cloaks at the feet of the young Saul, it is a sport for these friends of Saul to kill Stephen. When the last stone is about to strike Stephen, he falls into a deep sleep and is finally made a cornerstone of the Church. This is symbolized by the stones thrown at Stephen. At this, in Heaven, Jesus stands from his throne to witness this terrible event. I can see Jesus cheering on Stephen as this friend of Jesus lays down his life for his Master and Lord.
May 12th, 2006 @ 8:59 pm
I believe this is true. Some examples:
Ecstasy in the Holy Spirit during martyrdom.
The ascension of Jesus and the crying of the disciples.
Jesus risen and the suffering of the disciples and Apostles awaiting Jesus to appear.
Peter before the Sanhedrin and his joy at having suffered for Jesus.
May 12th, 2006 @ 10:01 am
Are they similar because they are part of every person’s life…….pretty much the case with death, as being the uniting factor for all humanity. In the end no one is big, no one is small, we are all the same……..and when exposed to joys rejoice, and when exposed to suffering, handle it with forbearance because it will pass and there will be light at the end of the tunnel.
The fabric of humanity is interwoven with both joys and sorrows. The emotions generated though are different, so it is perplexing to actually conclude that they are the same thing. So it does leave me confused in the end…….and having to disagree that they are the same thing.
May 12th, 2006 @ 1:13 am
I think we actually learn more through suffering than from joy. God knows what is best and knows what will really ripen and further His work in us…some suffering and some joy.
May 9th, 2006 @ 11:11 am
They are the same if one tries to answer yes to the voice that calls us beloved as the highest vocation of a lifetime. Joy and suffering are the same if we believe, as Nouwen says,that our brief lives mean more than the “chronology”- we are more than what we feel, more than we experience. We can make ourselves an expression of pure love. I find the thoughts in this book sacred. Henri Nouwen offers us a view of every human life as eucharist, pure gift- chosen, blessed, broken and given, and speaks simply and powerfully about the the journey to become eucharist, to become Love in the world and in eternity.